Concussion grenade damage

[Don Thompson]

cc to alt.engr.explosives

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,1282,-2887090,00.html

http://www.nola.com/newsflash/national/index.ssf?/newsflash/get_story.ssf?/cgi-free/getstory_ssf.cgi?a0630_BC_StandoffDeath&&news&newsflash-national

links to the written story. Anyone else see the story and video of the
concussion grenade going off in the house? Played at least twice on Fox

news

channel this morning. Looked to be about a 20 x 40 or 30 x 50 house and

when

the device exploded the whole roof lifted off the walls. And the police
wonder if the fire was a result of the grenade? Ha.

Don, I agree...still was it a "Concussion Grenade" that was used, or a
"Flash-Bang"? As you likely know, there is a major difference between
the two devices.
The classic "Concussion Grenade" has (and likely more recent versions
are now available) the designation MK3A2. It contain's 8-oz of TNT,
and is designed to be used for demolition or to produce casualties. It
is hard to imagine what justification could be used to put these in
the hands of the police!
By contrast, a "Flash-Bang" is a pyrotechnics device employing a
rather conventional mix of flash powder and often deployed to police
department service. I haven't been able to determine how much of a
flash charge these contain, but my guess is between 1 and 3 ounces.
They are deployed not for use in routine police busts, but for final
termination of holdout events involving murderers and heavily armed,
desperate individuals who if left unchecked would pose a clear and
present danger to the community (not simply the police department).
Since these devices have an explosive effect similar to that of a
3-inch aerial flash salute, their use represents an obviously lethal
response to whatever threat may be being confronted. So in essence
when a Flash-Bang is employed, the police have accepted the
possibility that the suspect may be captured dead rather than alive.
I live it to readers of this group to conclude what property damage
could result from the use of such devices. (Picture exploding a 3"
aerial salute lying on your living room floor! You likely won't have a
floor or windows anymore, and maybe not a roof! Likely, the building
will be in flames.)
In this respect, Don is quite correct. In fact, I really can't imagine
any responsible individual using either a Concussion Grenade or a
Flash-Bang during any routine bust. To do so should be a criminal
offense!
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,51760,00.html
Harry C.

The visible evidence of very large quantities of billowing white smoke
immediately following the blast leads me to believe it to have been more of
a "Flashbang" than a true concussion grenade. The audio of the Fox news
piece claimed it to be a "Stun" grenade fired into the house so until a more
accurate source comes along I will still assume it to be a pyrotechnic
device rather than a true "explosive" device as in military grenades. But it
was not of the hand delivered type, it was fired into the house using a
launcher. One can safely wonder if this device was not one of those type
fired by FBI/DEA/ATF (whichever) into the house at Waco exhibited before the
Congressional committee investigating the Waco debacle. During that hearing
Mr. Chuckie Schumer (the pissant from Nuevo York who later became Mr.
Senator Chuckie Schumer the pissant from Nuevo York) accused the presenting
witness of lying when said witness (for the defense) told him that those
devices had lethal capabilities. But the design of that hearing was for the
democrat members to clear the dyke from Floriduh from any responsibility for
the fiery deaths of 83 old men old women and children who were babes - in -
arms.

BTW the current crop of military issue concussion grenades utilize
Composition B, a castable blend of RDX and TNT. That link you posted is VERY
interesting to me because when the military want to demolish a building from
the inside what do you think they use? Yep. You guessed it. An improvised
fuel air munition. Common material to demonstrate the effects of these FAM's
at the "Lost-in-the-Woods" Sapper Engineer Course are plain old wheat flour
and that crappy powdered "Hot Chocolate Drink Mix" from today's combat
ration ( MRE. Meal, Ready to Eat, individual) placed in a plastic meal bag
with an ounce of C-4 or det cord sufficient to contain 450 grains of PETN.
So. In my estimation of what will happen with these "new" flashbangs as
described in the article is that a hell of a lot more houses will be
demolished and a hell of a lot more resulting fires.

[Juan Rico]

Since these devices have an explosive effect similar to that of a
3-inch aerial flash salute, their use represents an obviously lethal
response to whatever threat may be being confronted.

Having been on both the receiving as well as the distributing end of
these devices ("flash bangs", or the more politically correct
"noise-light distraction device"), I wouldn't exactly characterize
them as "obviously lethal".



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[Execrisk]

For your information note- non leathal classification of XM84

MK3A2 Concussion Offensive Hand Grenade
The MK3A2 offensive hand grenade, commonly referred to as the concussion
grenade, is designed to produce casualties during close combat while
minimizing danger to friendly personnel. The grenade is also used for
concussion effects in enclosed areas, for blasting, or for demolition tasks.
The shock waves (overpressure) produced by this grenade when used in
enclosed areas are greater than those produced by the fragmentation grenade.
It is, therefore, very effective against enemy soldiers located in bunkers,
buildings, and fortified areas
(1) Body -- fibre (similar to the packing container for the fragmentation
hand grenade).
(2) Filler -- 8 ounces of TNT.
(3) Fuse -- M206A1 or M206A2.
(4) Weight -- 15.6 ounces.
(5) Safety clip -- yes.
(6) Capabilities -- can be thrown 40 meters by average soldier. The MK3A2
has an effective casualty radius in open areas of 2 meters. Secondary
missiles and bits of fuse may be projected as far as 200 meters from the
detonation point.
(7) Colour/markings -- black with yellow markings around its middle


XM84 Stun Grenade
The XM84 Stun Grenade is a non-fragmentation, non-lethal "Flash And Bang"
stun grenade that is intended to provide a reliable, effective non-lethal
means of neutralizing & disorienting enemy personnel.

The US Army Military Police Corps is involved in missions that require the
use of a stun hand grenade (diversionary device) to confuse, disorient, or
momentarily distract a potential threat.

The device will be used to apply the minimum force necessary by tactical and
non-tactical forces while performing missions of hostage rescue and capture
of criminals, terrorists and other adversaries.

The congressionally mandated Soldier Enhancement Program (SEP), of which one
purpose is to enhance the survivability items used by the US Army soldier,
is the initiative to provide this increased level of protection.

Post by Juan Rico

Since these devices have an explosive effect similar to that of a
3-inch aerial flash salute, their use represents an obviously lethal
response to whatever threat may be being confronted.

Having been on both the receiving as well as the distributing end of
these devices ("flash bangs", or the more politically correct
"noise-light distraction device"), I wouldn't exactly characterize
them as "obviously lethal".
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[Richard Casady]

On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:26:57 +1000, "Execrisk"

Post by Execrisk
MK3A2 Concussion Offensive Hand Grenade
The MK3A2 offensive hand grenade, commonly referred to as the concussion
grenade, is designed to produce casualties during close combat while
minimizing danger to friendly personnel.

To point out the obvious, it is intended for, for example, attacking a
pillbox. If you miss the firing slit and it bounces off, the explosion
in the open air will be only somewhat dangerous to the thrower. If it
gets into the bunker, the blast will be trapped and do some real harm
to the gunners inside. The guys in the bunker will have a case or so
of frag grenades with which to deal with enemies too close to shoot
with the MG. A proper bunker will have the ground in front of it
graded flat so that there is no cover from the gun and those grenade
fragments. On of the advantages of the high ground is that grenades
can obviously be thrown much farther downhill than uphill.

Grenades are the most user dangerous of all the weapons available to
the infantryman but the are popular for their two advantages over
guns. No return address. Works around corners.

Casady

[Anon Emous]

Post by Richard Casady
On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:26:57 +1000, "Execrisk"
Grenades are the most user dangerous of all the weapons available to
the infantryman but the are popular for their two advantages over
guns. No return address. Works around corners.
Casady

----------
Extracted from:-

Peter G. Kokalis
The World’s Worst Grenades
The Shotgun News 56(26) 20-1 10 October 2002

The very worst grenade of this type [instant impact fuzed] was the
World War II U.S. T13 “Beano” hand grenade developed by the National
Defense Research committee at the request of the Office of Strategic
Services (OSS). It is though that Yugoslav partisans wanted a grenade
of this type to use against trucks carrying German troops.

A fragmentation type the T13 was spherical in shape and weighed only
11.9 ounces. Its diameter was 2.83 inches and it was filled with 4.6
ounces of Composition A. Its supposed effective radius was 20 meters.

…….. After the safety pin was removed, the checkered circular plate on
top of the grenade was held down by the thumb. When the grenade was
thrown, the circular plate was forced away from the grenade body by a
spring. The circular plate acted as drogue unwinding a tape attached
to the arming pin.

When the tape was fully unwound, I pulled out the secondary safety
pin, thus arming the fuse. When the secondary safety pin was pulled,
the two retaining balls receded into the firing pin assembly and
permitted the striker to move. Arming was supposed to take place
between 15 and 25 feet from the thrower. Any impact would then ignite
the “always” fuze

The T13 project ended disastrously. During the final tests at Aberdeen
proving ground, in front of a large assemblage of high-ranking
officers, one of the Army’s civilian engineers gave an enthusiastic
lecture about the T13 and then demonstrated by pitching it high over
his head like a baseball. This of course armed the grenade. When he
stepped under the T13 and caught it, he as instantly vaporized in
front of the stunned audience. All further tests of the T13 were
stopped and the project abandoned immediately.

[Dirk Bruere at Neopax]

Post by Juan Rico

Since these devices have an explosive effect similar to that of a
3-inch aerial flash salute, their use represents an obviously lethal
response to whatever threat may be being confronted.

Having been on both the receiving as well as the distributing end of
these devices ("flash bangs", or the more politically correct
"noise-light distraction device"), I wouldn't exactly characterize
them as "obviously lethal".

There is a famous video of one going off in the trouser pocket of a police
officer.
Didn't even lose his leg.