Quarrying WITHOUT explosives

[terryking2288]

OT, but some of you guys probably know about quarrying.

I need to quarry some rock (about 50 cubic yards or so) quite close to
my home, to make a swimming pool.

Can anyone point to quarrying approaches that use non-explosive
methods?

Thanks! (I had a license at one time, but this is not a good
candidate for that nice, low-cost rock breaker)...

Regards, Terry King ..On the South China Sea in Shekou .. Home to
Vermont for the Summer
***@terryking.us

[Bruce in alaska]

In article

Post by terryking2288
OT, but some of you guys probably know about quarrying.
I need to quarry some rock (about 50 cubic yards or so) quite close to
my home, to make a swimming pool.
Can anyone point to quarrying approaches that use non-explosive
methods?
Thanks! (I had a license at one time, but this is not a good
candidate for that nice, low-cost rock breaker)...
Regards, Terry King ..On the South China Sea in Shekou .. Home to
Vermont for the Summer

Excavator with a Hydraulic Concrete Breaker Attachment......
Hydraulics are your friend.......

[Edward Hennessey]

Post by terryking2288
OT, but some of you guys probably know about quarrying.
I need to quarry some rock (about 50 cubic yards or so) quite close to
my home, to make a swimming pool.
Can anyone point to quarrying approaches that use non-explosive
methods?
Thanks! (I had a license at one time, but this is not a good
candidate for that nice, low-cost rock breaker)...
Regards, Terry King ..On the South China Sea in Shekou .. Home to
Vermont for the Summer

TK:

From your project, I guess your quarry will be out of flat ground. You
failed to specify what kind of rock type you will be dealing with, what
condition
it is in and what depth you want to work to, all of which are important
factors.

On ease and time, Bruce is right. If you want a workout and don't mind the
hours
invested there may be simpler approaches that would at involve a rock drill
and feathers and wedges plus a bar or, perhaps, a heavy sledgehammer,
wedges and a big
bar. If you want to shape the displaced rock into dimensional pieces for
some other use,
the laborious techniques have the advantage there.

Don't forget that if you break up large pieces you are still going to get
them out of the
hole. That will not be easy without machinery.

And good to see you Bruce.

Regards,

Edward Hennessey

[Edward Hennessey]

Post by Edward Hennessey

Post by terryking2288
OT, but some of you guys probably know about quarrying.
I need to quarry some rock (about 50 cubic yards or so) quite close
to my home, to make a swimming pool.
Can anyone point to quarrying approaches that use non-explosive
methods?
Thanks! (I had a license at one time, but this is not a good
candidate for that nice, low-cost rock breaker)...
Regards, Terry King ..On the South China Sea in Shekou .. Home to
Vermont for the Summer

From your project, I guess your quarry will be out of flat ground. You
failed to specify what kind of rock type you will be dealing with,
what condition
it is in and what depth you want to work to, all of which are
important factors.
On ease and time, Bruce is right. If you want a workout and don't
mind the hours
invested there may be simpler approaches that would at involve a rock
drill and feathers and wedges plus a bar or, perhaps, a heavy
sledgehammer, wedges and a big
bar. If you want to shape the displaced rock into dimensional pieces
for some other use,
the laborious techniques have the advantage there.
Don't forget that if you break up large pieces you are still going to
get them out of the
hole. That will not be easy without machinery.
And good to see you Bruce.
Regards,
Edward Hennessey

It later occurred to me that the OP may not want to quarry rock out of
a hole to build the customary below-ground swimming pool. If he wanted to
quarry
rock and use it to build an above-ground swimming pool out of the blocks or
slabs
obtained, it would be a good idea for him to clarify the issue and the
particulars of
his intended construction.

Regards,

Edward Hennessey

[terryking2288]

Thanks for the responses and ideas. You're right, I need to be more
specific! I'll try a bit here, but I'm 12,000 miles from Vermont in
mainland China. I'll be back in Vermont in 3 or 4 days.

Post by Edward Hennessey

Post by Edward Hennessey
From your project, I guess your quarry will be out of flat ground. You
failed to specify what kind of rock type you will be dealing with,
what condition
it is in and what depth you want to work to, all of which are
important factors.

The ROCK. I don't know the technical description, but I think I can
get some help on that. The parts of the ledge I have exposed look
like light gray with obvious horizontal striations, lots of mica-
colored specks. It is NOT real tough. I was able to drill a 1/2 inch
hole 3inches deep with a small hammer-drill in about 60 seconds. It
tends to break off along the horizontal layers. Now, once I get from
the surface weathered Vermont-Wintered stuff it may be more solid.

I>t later occurred to me that the OP may not want to quarry rock out
of

Post by Edward Hennessey
a hole to build the customary below-ground swimming pool.

I do want to make the pool mostly below ground. The location has some
slope, which I expect is likely to follow the ledge shape. I don't
really need dimension stone for a specific purpose.

<Excavator with a Hydraulic Concrete Breaker Attachment......
Hydraulics are your friend....

Can you point to an example of this kind of machine??

And I have a small crane that should lift up to 800 Lb pieces out....

Regards, Terry King ..On the South China Sea in Shekou
***@terryking.us

[Edward Hennessey]

Post by terryking2288
Thanks for the responses and ideas. You're right, I need to be more
specific! I'll try a bit here, but I'm 12,000 miles from Vermont in
mainland China. I'll be back in Vermont in 3 or 4 days.

Post by Edward Hennessey
From your project, I guess your quarry will be out of flat ground.
You failed to specify what kind of rock type you will be dealing
with, what condition
it is in and what depth you want to work to, all of which are
important factors.

The ROCK. I don't know the technical description, but I think I can
get some help on that. The parts of the ledge I have exposed look
like light gray with obvious horizontal striations, lots of mica-
colored specks. It is NOT real tough. I was able to drill a 1/2 inch
hole 3inches deep with a small hammer-drill in about 60 seconds. It
tends to break off along the horizontal layers. Now, once I get from
the surface weathered Vermont-Wintered stuff it may be more solid.

TK:

A flying guess on the rock type would be schist. See any
garnet crystals embedded? You will find pictorial
field guides in your public library that would promote a more exact
determination. When you get back, see if it breaks on flat foliation
planes or splits laterally but irregularly. One simple way to get expert
help is to see if there is someone at your state geological survey who
will make a call on a submitted sample. Putting an upscale chocolate
bar in the package for deep personal analysis probably won't hurt your
chances
of a reply.

Post by terryking2288
I do want to make the pool mostly below ground. The location has some
slope, which I expect is likely to follow the ledge shape. I don't
really need dimension stone for a specific purpose.
<Excavator with a Hydraulic Concrete Breaker Attachment......
Hydraulics are your friend....
Can you point to an example of this kind of machine??

Bruce probably knows better than I do but the constraining factor for
you would be what is available in your area. Call rental
yards and ask them what they have along that line. Remember, when
trying to sort rental rates for different machines..
that bigger is usually better and much faster.

If you want to form your own visual picture, imagine a backhoe with a large
centerpunch hanging off the business end. Just search images under
+hydraulic
+(rock OR concrete) +breaker" and more will come.

By the way, do you ever go to Indonesia?

Post by terryking2288
And I have a small crane that should lift up to 800 Lb pieces out....

You'll be good there.

Regards,

Edward Hennessey

[Bruce in alaska]

Post by Edward Hennessey
Bruce probably knows better than I do but the constraining factor for
you would be what is available in your area. Call rental
yards and ask them what they have along that line. Remember, when
trying to sort rental rates for different machines..
that bigger is usually better and much faster.

I have no idea what would be available in China, but I see a BUNCH
of Excavators on the news out of the Quake Zone, so I know they have
them there. The Concrete Breaker attachments are like a JackHammer
attached to the business end of the Excavator Arm. If it was "Me",
I would look seriously into maybe using a 1.25 inch. Rock Drill, and
drilling down oh, say 2 - 3 meters, with a series of holes in the shape
of the area to be excavated, and then load the bottom of the holes with
something like "Individually Capped 1/4 Stick Charges of 1" Tovex". Then
cap, and tamp the holes with moist sand. This would shatter the
substrate down at the bottom, while leaving, the surface undisturbed, or
just slightly cracked. It would make excavating, a whole lot easier,
while preventing ANY Fly Debris, from leaving the surface.
I did a job at a location in Alaska a few years back, where they ran
into a WWII Foundation made of Seven Bag Concrete with 30# Rebar/CuFt.
they needed to run a Sewer Line thru the foundation, but it was in a
driveway between to two, Two Story Bunkhouses, with a LOT of Glass
windows facing the driveway. I had the MuckMen drill the foundation, as
above with five Holes, loaded as above, and tamped with wet sand.
Covered the whole excavation with Wet Sand, and topped it with a Steel
8' X 8' X 1/4" steel plate. The Owner's foreman was very concerned,
about the windows, and I bet him $50US that there would be No Fly at
all. Set it OFF, and there was just a "Whomp" that you could barely feel
in your feet, and a small wisp of smoke that boiled up thru the sand.
Moved the Plate, and the Backhoe Operator dug down to the foundation,
with the hoe. He caught the bucket teeth on the ReBar, but the
foundation was just gravel. Took a cutting Torch to the Rebar and there
was a nice trough thru the old Foundation for the Sewer Line. I got the
Cigar, and the $50US bet. The trick to all of this, is to use Lots of
holes, and very little, reasonably fast Powder, with each individual
charge, individually capped, and the timing set for an outside to inside
detonation.
This isn't Rocket Science, but it does take an Experienced Powderman
to do the figuring, and live with the consequences.

[terryking2288]

Thanks, Guys!
I will do some first-pass rock digging and get an opinion on the type.
Vermont is small, and Montpelier, the capital is only 15 miles away.

OK, I HAVE seen one of those monster-jackhammer things. Breaking
buildings here in China to make way for the higher-rise future.. I'll
check that out.

I like the idea of drilling holes, first. Being close to Barre,
Vermont, I expect I can find someone to come over and do that kind of
drilling. (I had no problem finding someone to cut 3 inch holes in a
piece of granite countertop I made into a gas stove. They had a "drill
press" thing in their shop you could have put a VW Bug under.)

Bruce, I like the idea of a deep-hole small-charge approach. What
kind of timing do you think would be best? Would typical delay EB caps
be OK, or would some high-class electronic timed blasting machine be
better? If I had more than one job to shoot, I might build
something.. I have an old capacitive-discharge machine I built about
1970, but it hasn't fired a shot since then.

I don't know anything about rock type charges. What is Tovex like? I
only used typical Dupont stuff like Red-Cross Xtra for stumping and
mudcapping. I'd probably find someone in the business to shoot this,
but maybe I'll study up and get a license again some day. Dunno how
Homeland Security has affected things in Vermont, but I'm probably not
in any bad Profiles :-) Seem to breeze through security/immigration
in US, Africa, Europe and Asia. So Far.

I have not been to Indonesia, but did get down to Malaysia and the
island of Borneo a few months ago. Weird. Borneo was "The Wild Man Of
Borneo" and National Geographic only 50+ years ago when I was a kid.
It was very interesting, and we got out to the island of Sipidan, with
amazing reef fish and dozens of huge turtles cruising past us. See:
http://www.terryking.us/photoalbum/v/travel/

OK, interesting project. I'll be travelling next 3-4 days but I'll
turn up after that.

Thanks!

[Edward Hennessey]

Post by terryking2288
Thanks, Guys!
I will do some first-pass rock digging and get an opinion on the type.
Vermont is small, and Montpelier, the capital is only 15 miles away.
OK, I HAVE seen one of those monster-jackhammer things. Breaking
buildings here in China to make way for the higher-rise future.. I'll
check that out.
I like the idea of drilling holes, first. Being close to Barre,
Vermont, I expect I can find someone to come over and do that kind of
drilling. (I had no problem finding someone to cut 3 inch holes in a
piece of granite countertop I made into a gas stove. They had a "drill
press" thing in their shop you could have put a VW Bug under.)

TK:

The bits used to drill countertops and those used in making charge holes
are
quite different. At a minimum, you'll want somebody with a portable
gas-powered
machine like a Cobra or Pionjar/Berema. A wagon drill would be better. The
latter will be more pricey and require transport but be better than the
alternative
if you are drilling deeper holes, which we don't yet know.

Post by terryking2288
Bruce, I like the idea of a deep-hole small-charge approach. What
kind of timing do you think would be best? Would typical delay EB caps
be OK, or would some high-class electronic timed blasting machine be
better? If I had more than one job to shoot, I might build
something.. I have an old capacitive-discharge machine I built about
1970, but it hasn't fired a shot since then.
I don't know anything about rock type charges. What is Tovex like? I
only used typical Dupont stuff like Red-Cross Xtra for stumping and
mudcapping. I'd probably find someone in the business to shoot this,
but maybe I'll study up and get a license again some day. Dunno how
Homeland Security has affected things in Vermont, but I'm probably not
in any bad Profiles :-) Seem to breeze through security/immigration
in US, Africa, Europe and Asia. So Far.

Your idea of using someone in the business whose licensing, insurance and
past performance you have personally verified beyond the associated
documents seems a good one to me. Before the foreign attack, explosives
access
was too lax. In some places ridiculous would have been a better word.
Consider all
the hassle and expenditures you'll have to go through getting equipment,
permits and
insurance in balancing whether it is worth becoming personally engaged.
Then reason
the comparable chances of your result matching an experienced one.

Rock type remaining to be analyzed, your blaster will want to know if your
rock
is wet. After you resolve the two factors in the sentence above, you will
be able to have a more fruitful conversation on the topic.

Post by terryking2288
I have not been to Indonesia, but did get down to Malaysia and the
island of Borneo a few months ago. Weird. Borneo was "The Wild Man Of
Borneo" and National Geographic only 50+ years ago when I was a kid.
It was very interesting, and we got out to the island of Sipidan, with
http://www.terryking.us/photoalbum/v/travel/

There are some great books on Borneo adventuring. By the way, "orangutan"
means
"wild man". And if you have ever seen how strong they are, believe that.

Post by terryking2288
OK, interesting project. I'll be traveling next 3-4 days but I'll
turn up after that.

Have fun.

Regards,

Edward Hennessey

[Bruce in alaska]

In article

Post by terryking2288
Bruce, I like the idea of a deep-hole small-charge approach. What
kind of timing do you think would be best? Would typical delay EB caps
be OK, or would some high-class electronic timed blasting machine be
better? If I had more than one job to shoot, I might build
something.. I have an old capacitive-discharge machine I built about
1970, but it hasn't fired a shot since then.
I don't know anything about rock type charges. What is Tovex like? I
only used typical Dupont stuff like Red-Cross Xtra for stumping and
mudcapping. I'd probably find someone in the business to shoot this,
but maybe I'll study up and get a license again some day. Dunno how
Homeland Security has affected things in Vermont, but I'm probably not
in any bad Profiles :-) Seem to breeze through security/immigration
in US, Africa, Europe and Asia. So Far.

Tovex is a WaterGell Type of AN, sensitized with a Hydrocarbon
Nitrate, and Aluminum Powder. It is squishy and comes in many
bore sizes up to 4" I believe. When new, it is Cap Sensitive,
but will age out, in year or two, as the Hydrocarbon Nitrate
vaporizes.
I haven't dealt with RedCross Stuff in 40 years, and doubt that it is
really available, having been replaced with more stable variants. In my
youth, while apprenticing, I used some ReD-X40 for a Ditching Job, and it
was "Way Cool" as you just laid the powder along the ditch line,
and only had to cap the first Stick, as long as you stayed within
the sympathetic detonation distance, between charges. Worked slick,
but I never really liked the product, due to the VERY Small Entropy
Knee, for detonation. Not my first choice for any job.
Any standard Delay Caps will work just spiffy. Wire all the caps in
Parallel. Set the outside for the minimum timing, and each ring, toward
the center, add 50MS of delay, and you'll be just fine. Same as
one would use for a HardRock tunnel face. Standard Blaster Handbook
Stuff.

[Steve Thompson]

Post by terryking2288
Thanks, Guys!
I will do some first-pass rock digging and get an opinion on the type.
Vermont is small, and Montpelier, the capital is only 15 miles away.
OK, I HAVE seen one of those monster-jackhammer things. Breaking
buildings here in China to make way for the higher-rise future.. I'll
check that out.
I like the idea of drilling holes, first. Being close to Barre,

Barre is a shithole.

Post by terryking2288
Vermont, I expect I can find someone to come over and do that kind of
drilling. (I had no problem finding someone to cut 3 inch holes in a
piece of granite countertop I made into a gas stove. They had a "drill
press" thing in their shop you could have put a VW Bug under.)

No crap?

Post by terryking2288
Bruce, I like the idea of a deep-hole small-charge approach. What
kind of timing do you think would be best? Would typical delay EB caps
be OK, or would some high-class electronic timed blasting machine be
better? If I had more than one job to shoot, I might build
something.. I have an old capacitive-discharge machine I built about
1970, but it hasn't fired a shot since then.

Use it but do remember to wear a hard-hat for safety's sake.

Post by terryking2288
I don't know anything about rock type charges. What is Tovex like? I
only used typical Dupont stuff like Red-Cross Xtra for stumping and
mudcapping. I'd probably find someone in the business to shoot this,
but maybe I'll study up and get a license again some day. Dunno how
Homeland Security has affected things in Vermont, but I'm probably not
in any bad Profiles :-) Seem to breeze through security/immigration
in US, Africa, Europe and Asia. So Far.

Use the commercial stuff if you have to, but a little bird of my
acquaintence says that black-market explosives are currently the best
option.

Post by terryking2288
I have not been to Indonesia, but did get down to Malaysia and the
island of Borneo a few months ago. Weird. Borneo was "The Wild Man Of
Borneo" and National Geographic only 50+ years ago when I was a kid.
It was very interesting, and we got out to the island of Sipidan, with
http://www.terryking.us/photoalbum/v/travel/

neat. I wish I had the time to visit.

Post by terryking2288
OK, interesting project. I'll be travelling next 3-4 days but I'll
turn up after that.

Goood luck, bucko!


Regards,

Steve

[Steve Thompson]

Post by terryking2288
Thanks for the responses and ideas. You're right, I need to be more
specific! I'll try a bit here, but I'm 12,000 miles from Vermont in
mainland China. I'll be back in Vermont in 3 or 4 days.

Post by Edward Hennessey

Post by Edward Hennessey
From your project, I guess your quarry will be out of flat ground. You
failed to specify what kind of rock type you will be dealing with,
what condition
it is in and what depth you want to work to, all of which are
important factors.

The ROCK. I don't know the technical description, but I think I can
get some help on that. The parts of the ledge I have exposed look
like light gray with obvious horizontal striations, lots of mica-
colored specks. It is NOT real tough. I was able to drill a 1/2 inch

That mica shit is really hard, I don't think you'll be able to work it
successfully in a reasonable time without explosives.

Post by terryking2288
hole 3inches deep with a small hammer-drill in about 60 seconds. It
tends to break off along the horizontal layers. Now, once I get from
the surface weathered Vermont-Wintered stuff it may be more solid.
I>t later occurred to me that the OP may not want to quarry rock out
of

Post by Edward Hennessey
a hole to build the customary below-ground swimming pool.

I do want to make the pool mostly below ground. The location has some
slope, which I expect is likely to follow the ledge shape. I don't
really need dimension stone for a specific purpose.
<Excavator with a Hydraulic Concrete Breaker Attachment......
Hydraulics are your friend....
Can you point to an example of this kind of machine??
And I have a small crane that should lift up to 800 Lb pieces out....
Regards, Terry King ..On the South China Sea in Shekou

You're probably best off using commcercial grade explosives to break
up the mica. Then, use a big fuckin' crane to get the pieces out of
the hole and into a dump truck where it can be taken away and despised
of properly.


Regards,

Steve

[Flash]

Another possibility for you to investigate may be the use of a product
called Nonex......or its competitor PCF

Basicly a smokless powder cartridge with an eletric fusehead .
drill down about 1.5 M ..err 5ft something i guess
and drop them down the hole and compact stemming.
wont shatter as you would expect from conventional explosives but induces
some fairly serious cracks ....enough to get an excavator with a ripper into
to pull out the rock.

weve used them in some fairly close proximity places and the exclusion zone
is fairly minimal.
not sure if you need a ticket to use where you come from but here you do .

good luck

Post by terryking2288
OT, but some of you guys probably know about quarrying.
I need to quarry some rock (about 50 cubic yards or so) quite close to
my home, to make a swimming pool.
Can anyone point to quarrying approaches that use non-explosive
methods?
Thanks! (I had a license at one time, but this is not a good
candidate for that nice, low-cost rock breaker)...
Regards, Terry King ..On the South China Sea in Shekou .. Home to
Vermont for the Summer

[terryking2288]

OK, made it 12,000 miles +- back to Vermont! Soon's I mow next to the
barn I'll start chipping away a bit and see what I've got. Thanks...